tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post18342730796545338..comments2024-03-28T09:52:15.415-04:00Comments on Common Denominator: McKnight 3: Gospel Culture/Salvation CultureKen Schenckhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09745548537303356655noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-41755483190338665582011-11-07T20:40:41.216-05:002011-11-07T20:40:41.216-05:00Ken, in this chp I'm doing my best to define t...Ken, in this chp I'm doing my best to define terms the way typical evangelicalism does - and I have a book conversion that shows I see all kinds of progression and unconsciousness, etc, and my A Community called Atonement is an attempt to broaden "salvation." But I don't think most evangelicals operate with such a view ...Scot McKnighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10236995845255167421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-63516981002279627632011-11-04T17:52:38.605-04:002011-11-04T17:52:38.605-04:00Also, I have learned from several bitter experienc...Also, I have learned from several bitter experiences that when an Evangelical starts talking about his or her faith in a business context, I must make sure I still have my wallet.FrGregACCAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00368463715994694203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-1047019312262129682011-11-04T17:50:36.090-04:002011-11-04T17:50:36.090-04:00"Is it fair to judge a tradition by the behav..."Is it fair to judge a tradition by the behavior of its adherents rather than its loftiest ideals? Beats me. But you can't just pretend that the fruit of a tradition includes the great unwashed walking away from mass with out the least wit of intention to follow Jesus in any meaningful way." <br /><br />I think this makes a huge assumption that is unwarranted. Evangelicals are conditioned to talk about their faith any time, anywhere. This is not necessarily the case with RC and the Orthodox. That doesn't mean the faith is not there and that it is not lived out.<br /><br />I am reminded of Jesus' parable concerning two sons, one whom told this father he would work in the fields, but then did not, while the other said 'no" but then did.FrGregACCAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00368463715994694203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-86734180510813658082011-11-04T17:45:59.145-04:002011-11-04T17:45:59.145-04:00Is soterian then being defined as that gospel cult...Is soterian then being defined as that gospel culture which does not go "beyond bringing people to a salvation decision"? <br /><br />Or is McKnight saying a gospel culture that emphasizes an experience of personal salvation is one that will not go beyond a salvation decision and bring people to discipleship and maturity? I'd find that claim outrageous absent any qualification. <br /><br />Ken, why do you disassociate "escaping God’s wrath in the coming judgment" from justification?JohnMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-78494755628051826692011-11-04T17:16:40.283-04:002011-11-04T17:16:40.283-04:00Rats!
That should be:
But you can't just pre...Rats!<br /><br />That should be:<br /><br />But you can't just pretend that the fruit of a tradition DOES NOT INCLUDE the great unwashedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-39965980447279524282011-11-04T17:15:26.311-04:002011-11-04T17:15:26.311-04:00Funny.. I took "where the sacramentalists som...Funny.. I took "where the sacramentalists sometimes stop" to mean those whose faith is a Sunday only affair. If they show up at the church building once or twice a week, they figure they are covered. While many fit this description, many others show up but return home hungering for more and never get it. <br /><br />Is it fair to judge a tradition by the behavior of its adherents rather than its loftiest ideals? Beats me. But you can't just pretend that the fruit of a tradition includes the great unwashed walking away from mass with out the least wit of intention to follow Jesus in any meaningful way. <br /><br />(We atheists have the same problem: do we accept Dawkins and Hitchens in the tent or treat them as outliers...?)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-48983732888608732732011-11-04T15:30:45.978-04:002011-11-04T15:30:45.978-04:00Thanks for reminding me of that, Ken, about attrit...Thanks for reminding me of that, Ken, about attrition rates. However, my point about Phariseeism certainly stands.FrGregACCAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00368463715994694203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-87546330722491532582011-11-04T15:12:13.918-04:002011-11-04T15:12:13.918-04:00Nathaniel and FrGreg, I'm basically responding...Nathaniel and FrGreg, I'm basically responding to McKnight here, not targeting sacramental traditions. If it makes you feel better, in his first chapter he considers the "depth rate" for both sacramental traditions and evangelicals about the same.Ken Schenckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09745548537303356655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-89302609957062821252011-11-04T14:52:30.977-04:002011-11-04T14:52:30.977-04:00Good points, Nathaniel. There is also the issue o...Good points, Nathaniel. There is also the issue of Phariseeism. Roman Catholics, we Orthodox, and those of similar faith and practice are not immune, of course, but it seems that Evangelicals are particularly vulnerable to being tempted from that direction.<br /><br />Besides, Fr. Wesley himself was quite the sacramentalist.FrGregACCAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00368463715994694203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-34468405381849616192011-11-04T09:59:19.093-04:002011-11-04T09:59:19.093-04:00Your/Scott's sacramental comments are frankly ...Your/Scott's sacramental comments are frankly specious. The sacraments do work in the heart of the Devil according to St Paul: they cause sickness and death. Do you realize that the ancient teaching of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches is that "being baptized as a child" or "participating in Mass every once and a while" but having no faith otherwise leads to a greater condemnation than if one had no such participation? For instance, for Catholics every Sunday (as well as many feast days) is a "Holy Day of Obligation." I respect you as a scholar, but frankly repeating such nonsense as "where the sacraments sometimes stop" based solely on the behavior of the worst members of the churches you disagree with and not upon their official teaching is the worst kind of bias. I know you would not wish me to judge the Wesleyans by their worst adherents. Can you not provide the ancient churches with the same consideration? The sacraments do not stop at the door of the church, people impede their working. You've merely set up a straw man in "sacramentalists" and act as if evangelicals have a unique corner on the market of personal faith. It is as if the 6th ecumenical council is not entirely about personal faith (hint: personal faith is entirely the reason that Christ must have two wills). The "overemphasis" on a "moment of decision" is not an overemphasis at all but the rejection of the sacramental life. The reason that this overemphasis came about is that existentialism came to be the normative metaphysic of American protestantism and as such "choice" or "decision" became the chief sacrament, replacing baptism.<br /><br />Its time we had a real discussion about the distinctives of Wesleyanism/evangelicalism rather than puff cheerleader pieces that underhandedly malign their opponents. Please be the responsible scholar I know you are and represent your opponents fairly. Christian duty demands this.Nathanielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04008539197675560813noreply@blogger.com