tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post7977887216628675591..comments2024-03-28T09:52:15.415-04:00Comments on Common Denominator: Monday Enns: New Testament Interpretation of OldKen Schenckhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09745548537303356655noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-63029552367314061152009-01-27T17:35:00.000-05:002009-01-27T17:35:00.000-05:00JM, sorry I'm so slow to respond. Usually it's wh...JM, sorry I'm so slow to respond. Usually it's when I have to think! And I hope you and others will grill me to make sure I'm not barking up the wrong tree...<BR/><BR/>I see the creeds as part of the communion of the saints. But I think there are implicit matters of consensus even beyond the creeds. For example, ex nihilo creation is not in the creeds explicitly. And the way we fit the Bible together as a story would be part of it.<BR/><BR/>By referring to this as consensus and as communion, I don't have to associate common Christian faith with the Roman Catholic Church or Orthodox churches.<BR/><BR/>I also leave room for people at one time and place to be off track. Someone (was it you) asked about the apparent implication that God could let the church go off track for centuries on topics. But I suppose the problem is still there that God might have waited till the Protestant Reformation to set the church back to the Bible too...Ken Schenckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09745548537303356655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-75003402802870747742009-01-27T17:24:00.000-05:002009-01-27T17:24:00.000-05:00What I meant was, are you speaking of the central ...What I meant was, are you speaking of the central doctrines of the church as formulated in the creeds, etc.? I know that is a simple question, but I have a simple mind...<BR/>I do think I'm fairly coherent, though:)......When I read Church history, I still see Wesley, for example as being considered controversial then and now. <BR/>Anyway, I enjoy reading you, and being in on the conversation, even when it is above me, as is all too often....what can I say, I majored in music, not religion...John Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01584577160006751298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-87200553126146872562009-01-27T12:38:00.000-05:002009-01-27T12:38:00.000-05:00Ken, if I understand you, you place emphasis on at...Ken, if I understand you, you place emphasis on at least two things, the work of the Holy Spirit, and tradition. In your book on interpretation you say it is when we are "in fellowship with the church of the ages that we are most likely to hear God's Spirit on any particular belief and practice." <BR/>This is one of the reasons I have become a something of a student of church history. But I feel you may be speaking at a deeper level than this. I have a remarkable talent for missing the obvious, and don't want to do it here. What does it mean, in your view to be in fellowship with the church of the ages? And, I wonder what the implications are for Wesleyan's?-I know, you probably don't have time to deal with that....John Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01584577160006751298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-44460899640647825902009-01-27T10:38:00.000-05:002009-01-27T10:38:00.000-05:00Ken, just landed on your blog for the first time, ...Ken, just landed on your blog for the first time, good stuff. Your first response to 'dave' is an excellent (and gracious) description of the process of working through that process, of trying to harmonize the "entire bible." What a mess that gets to be in every way. I am early in the process of deconstructing the way I read the bible, and you are exactly right, atheism lies right around the corner of literalizing and harmonizing the bible to death.Joshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17303885427565816487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-3663652132677739732009-01-27T06:12:00.000-05:002009-01-27T06:12:00.000-05:00The idea that you understand because you are prede...The idea that you understand because you are predestined and others of us don't because we aren't seems coherent to me. But in the interest of helping others, it is also a convenient way for a person to protect themselves from any questioning of their understanding. Any cult leader or religion might resort to this argument for any belief or interpretation. <BR/><BR/>I know enough about the Christian Reformed Church to know that it basically believes that <I>it</I> is the small group to whom God has just happened to revealed the right understanding. All the other Christian groups are far less likely to include the elect, and their failure to see it your way is a sign of their lack of predestination. Coherent, yes. Suspicious if we use the kind of reasoning that normally would lead us to step out of the way of moving traffic, yes.<BR/><BR/>Your interpretation of 2 Peter 1:20-21 illustrates your point for you and my point for me. For me, you interpret these verses in a way you have inherited from tradition without knowing it--the reader doesn't get to come up with the interpretation of Scripture. The verse more likely, in my opinion, referred to the prophet's own opinion, not ours as readers.<BR/><BR/>So for me, you mistake tradition for the Bible. I bring grammatical and syntactical evidence to support my interpretation. For you, I simply am not predestined to understand the true meaning of the verse, your interpretation, and no evidence is needed because, de facto, you are right and everyone who disagrees is unenlightened.<BR/><BR/>Again, no one can argue with the way you understand Scripture to interpret Scripture, because your group and tradition is inspired to know the correct way to configure which are the clear and which the unclear verses. The rest of us can't see it because we are not chosen.<BR/><BR/>For me, comments by 2 Peter on making your election sure or Paul's comments on the possibility that he might not make it to the end in 1 Cor. 9 and Phil. 3 lead me to conclude that Paul's language of predestination in Romans 9 cannot mean what Augustine and Calvin thought it meant. Scripture itself cannot resolve which of these verses is clear and which unclear because it does not tell me how to connect one book with another. We are forced to do it by the very nature of the situation of a collection of individual books. <BR/><BR/>So you believe your group has the Spirit's illumination--a force outside the Bible that tells you how to bring one Scripture to bear on another. And I cannot argue with you because I connect the passages differently and, therefore, de facto, am predestined to be damned (or at least not predestined to be saved). So I can only hope that this analysis of your proposition shows it suspicious enough that your ideas will not hurt the faith of others. Eventually, I am convinced, those with the heart of Christ--if they get out much--will realize that this line of reasoning leads to an understanding of other Christians that is incompatible with God's heart as revealed in Scripture.Ken Schenckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09745548537303356655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-21541781461427426272009-01-26T23:52:00.000-05:002009-01-26T23:52:00.000-05:00i do understand your perspective...it is yours and...i do understand your perspective...it is yours and not the LORD's (His word instructs us to compare Scripture with Scripture and that no Scripture is of private interpretation)...perhaps that's why you abandoned your quest for truth 25 years ago and began to follow a god of your own making...maybe it's just "too hard" or perhaps you are not one of those "predestined..." not everyone is and I wonder if you fit your own criteria of your point number 2. no one is capable of doing what you claim like-minded Christians are in that point (harm God's church). Before the foundation, Jesus did all of the work and that included predestining those who He would seek and save. NO ONE can frustrate God's plan; however, that's a possibility from your perspective...and "reasonable" given the god you've chosen to serve.<BR/><BR/>we all read words from a certain perspective: a sinful one that will not see clearly. that's why the Bible must interpret itself.<BR/><BR/>Jesus said, if one looks lustfully, he's committed adultery in his heart. in the garden, we had already eaten the fruit by merely looking lustfully at it with our "open eyes" and added words (don't even touch it). the point is the added words. this is your proposal: add words to make the text clearer.<BR/><BR/>i'm saying leave the words and let the Bible explain them.<BR/><BR/>your way ends in error.<BR/><BR/>God's way (compare Scripture with Scripture) ends in truth.davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02988703673305166829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-18415834806890201002009-01-26T22:35:00.000-05:002009-01-26T22:35:00.000-05:00Dave, I appreciate your obvious commitment to God ...Dave, I appreciate your obvious commitment to God and His word. I don't ask you to adopt my understanding but would ask you to at least try to understand my perspective:<BR/><BR/>1. I used to approach the Bible with something like the approach you mention. I didn't change my perspective because of rebellion or pride or anything of that sort but as a result of the very kind of painful homework you suggest. Maybe I wasn't smart enough. Maybe I wasn't spiritual enough. Maybe I'm just not predestined to get it. But I am post-your-homework. Your comments are my very thoughts about twenty-five years ago.<BR/><BR/>2. Those who take your approach often end up losing their faith or becoming bitter in the manner I playfully suggested in the main post. In my experience, people like you, who have so much riding on such a minute sense of harmonization, usually end up as atheists. Therefore, as a Christian, I find your approach potentially harmful to God's church and your influence potentially harmful to the kingdom.<BR/><BR/>3. From my perspective, what you will create as you go verse by verse is exactly that, something <I>you</I> will create. From my perspective, while you think you are honoring the Bible, you will actually do great violence to the Bible because you will not let the words have anything like their straightforward sense. You will instead change the meaning of each verse to fit with some hypothetical harmonization you are trying to create. When you are done, all the verses will be different--they will take on the hidden meaning that only you have been able to find. You will have rewritten the whole Bible to fit your needs rather than letting each verse simply say what it seems to say.<BR/><BR/>I believe you are playing a trick on yourself. Think of it. You believe that you especially, in a one-on-one hammering it out with God, will be able to unlock the true harmonization of all the verses together. Perhaps it is not true of you, but I believe many a person has started this quest with a hidden sense of their own greatness. They will unlock the mystery. They are up to the challenge. It can be a hidden pride. Perhaps this does not apply to you but I believe it applies to many.<BR/><BR/>4. Given what I think I know about how words work and about the historical context of the Bible, I can't see how your approach... <BR/><BR/>a) really understands how words work--it doesn't understand how to read words in context and thus rips the Bible's words from any likely meaning they had when God first inspired them. Instead, without realizing it, you are reading the words against <I>your</I> context.<BR/><BR/>b) inadvertantly does not realize that <I>you</I> also read words from a certain perspective, that your every verse fitting with every verse perspective is merely a unity of understanding from your perspective, not the absolute perspective you seek at all but a perspective locked in <I>your</I> context.<BR/><BR/>Christ is risen! He is risen indeed! Thus faith stands!Ken Schenckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09745548537303356655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-56992395720112782402009-01-26T21:32:00.000-05:002009-01-26T21:32:00.000-05:00here's the way it works: the ENTIRE Bible must ha...here's the way it works: the ENTIRE Bible must harmonize; hence, each verse in whatever section it's found, must harmonize with all other verses.<BR/><BR/>this approach is phenomenally detailed and the general population of researchers and people who consider themselves "Bible scholars/students" do NOT do this kind of homework. <BR/><BR/>the aforementioned failure of researchers is why we do not and have not found most of the truths that God has for us in His word.<BR/><BR/>We must spend decades becoming humble before His word and approaching it without sticking our agenda into the pot. is this likely to happen? no.davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02988703673305166829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-15747213336229510492009-01-26T16:53:00.000-05:002009-01-26T16:53:00.000-05:00Just to clarify, that was the late David Smith who...Just to clarify, that was the late David Smith who passed in 1998.Ken Schenckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09745548537303356655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-11915691825274289292009-01-26T16:39:00.000-05:002009-01-26T16:39:00.000-05:00Of course, one in the evangelical tradition should...Of course, one in the evangelical tradition should understand that theirs is still a tradition that is based upon an ancient text, even if it incorporates the consensus of Christendom. Christendom is one of many and diverse understandings within the tradition, which as the late David Smith used to say, "Pay your money and take your choice"...which used to irritate me by the way...:)..<BR/><BR/>Tradition should be understood by those who teach it that it is only one tradition among many traditions which cultivate a culture and its people. Understanding that tradition is not to be understood in exclusivist claims, but in wide and broad strokes of 'understanding" and "ways of thinking"...this is what breeds tolerance and dialogue and openness...but radicalization of any tradition breeds prejuidice and intolerance...Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.com