tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post7025203626790605465..comments2024-03-28T09:52:15.415-04:00Comments on Common Denominator: Pagan Christianity 6: The PastorKen Schenckhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09745548537303356655noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-9071897173508347752009-03-07T10:12:00.000-05:002009-03-07T10:12:00.000-05:00Another favorite text supposedly available to subs...Another favorite text supposedly available to substantiate a plurality of elders is found at the end of Acts, chapter 14. Luke records that elders were "ordained in every church." The immediate context however is 3 cities (verse 21). The word 'church' can describe all the Christians or even all churches in a single city.<BR/><BR/>JA Alexander, a Princeton scholar highly acclaimed for his linguistic skills and highly committed to a plural eldership (as am I) candidly admits in his book on Acts that this text "does not necessarily imply that several elders were ordained in each church". According to him, the phrase "in every church" just literally means "church by church."<BR/><BR/>But doesn't James recommend calling the elders of the church to pray for the sick? Elders could have been city-wide just as churches were city-wide. Not much help there.<BR/><BR/>Episcopalians and Presbyterians (and others) have disputed these things for centuries. The issue is not a new one. The dogmatism found in PC and its sequel is quite unwarranted and needlessly offensive, imo.<BR/><BR/>Where then is the absolute requirement for more than a single overseer in every church?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-53462434282028577112009-03-06T19:15:00.000-05:002009-03-06T19:15:00.000-05:00I hope we can all agree that a healthy church, as ...I hope we can all agree that a healthy church, as Viola argues, will have everyone functioning like a body, different people exerting different gifts to the glory of God. And I think you (Bill), Pat, and I can agree that one sign of a good pastor is that the church doesn't fall apart--indeed that it goes on as healthily as ever--after he or she moves on.Ken Schenckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09745548537303356655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-25397081646686185922009-03-06T18:54:00.000-05:002009-03-06T18:54:00.000-05:00Pat said: "Really?"Maybe. IF the eternal purpose...Pat said: "Really?"<BR/><BR/>Maybe. IF the eternal purpose of God is for a corporate man <A HREF="http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=1&v=1&t=KJV#vrsn/26" REL="nofollow">to bear the image of Jesus Christ</A>, and IF that entails the equipping of a church to function as a grown 'new man', and IF a pastor presides over so much church activity that the body cannot function without him (or his subordinates)... then yes, a pastor does, de facto, to whatever degree, actually inhibit the active-spiritual maturing process of a church. What else does God want on the Earth but to see Christ standing <A HREF="http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Eph&c=4&v=1&t=KJV#vrsn/13" REL="nofollow">'unto full stature'</A>?<BR/><BR/>In contrast to much current praxis, Paul wanted the fivefold ministers to basically work themselves out of their jobs. They were trainers and coaches. The rest of us normal christians were the 'players'. As for elders - elders watch. Sometimes elders referee. Elders can certainly do more, but elders do not constantly direct.<BR/><BR/>I would genuinely love to see a paid Pastor who develops every member of the body "unto full stature". Many pastors do this to some degree, but not past a point. A healthy church should be able to function corporately in many and various ways without having to wait on the designated leader to start & run everything. Unfortunately, a lot of pastors know that to "work themselves out of a job" in this way could also mean unemployment. That's not fair to anyone, especially pastors.<BR/><BR/>Personally, if there was such a man in my town, who could train a group (or a group of groups) of people to function without him, I'd gladly tithe to keep on supporting him afterwards. A good coach should become less vocal during the games, as the players improve. But he would still be needed in so many ways.<BR/><BR/>I hope it is clear that what I just described is not what we usually see. I spent ten years in something approaching that ideal, but I have to admit we were really just experimenting. For now, I continue to hold out all kinds of hope...<BR/><BR/>Sorry to run on so long, Ken. I hope this was worthwhile input.Bill Heromanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05283809456471966882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-11767803699475684562009-03-06T15:38:00.000-05:002009-03-06T15:38:00.000-05:00Glad to see you working us through Viola. I think ...Glad to see you working us through Viola. <BR/><BR/>I think he has some good things to say--things that could be helpful to forming faithful church communities. But then his rhetoric goes over the top and I wonder if he's crazy. Things like: "Nothing so hinders the fulfillment of God's eternal purpose as does the present-day pastoral role." <BR/><BR/>Really?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-82554820660988721512009-03-06T13:29:00.000-05:002009-03-06T13:29:00.000-05:00Hiya Ken, others,Good topics for the mind.Now, why...Hiya Ken, others,<BR/><BR/>Good topics for the mind.<BR/><BR/>Now, why could not the "leading of the spirit" convince a group to have a single pastor? After all, it takes one leader before you could have a plurality of leaders. Or do all overseers have to become qualified and appointed on the same day? That's a stretch.<BR/><BR/>Further, if the leading of the spirit without human agency is the ultimate paradigm for church life, why, tell me, do books have to be written about it? Surely, the Scriptures alone could suffice if the Spirit alone couldn't get accomplish these ends.<BR/><BR/>In Acts 20, the elders of the Church of Ephesus could easily have been single overseers of single house churches (or even multiple churches or converted synagogues.) The apostles regularly refer to all the churches in a city as a SINGLE church.<BR/><BR/>I do believe that a plurality of overseers is best and is certainly scriptural but where is the proof that this is or was the <B>only valid</B> arrangement?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-34211416052383360182009-03-05T23:50:00.000-05:002009-03-05T23:50:00.000-05:00Ken, there's so much in this post I'd like to than...Ken, there's so much in this post I'd like to thank you for, and so much I'd like to challenge you on. All of it would be better in personal conversation. A blog is too difficult a medium for a worthy response to this well written, multi-faceted post. But if we got to have that conversation, it would be rich (and challenging) and I daresay we would both enjoy it.<BR/><BR/>In general, I think christians tend to be more even handed about these issues the more they (a) are extremely well educated (b) come from a more traditional, high<I>er</I>-church experience OR (c) have no personal stake in the status quo. You certainly fit at least two of those three, if not more. ;)<BR/><BR/>I was raised Episcopalian but toured Evangelicalism through my college years. There are so many believers in bondage to 'we must do what the bible says' for whom <B><I>according to their pastors</I></B> that includes having a pastor "like Eph.4:11" and going to church "like Heb.10:25". Even when the spirit of God himself is leading one to follow primitive scriptural patterns "in the hills of Kentucky", that influcence can be very hard to break away from.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps a lot of what bothers you about this book is merely being aimed at such people. I don't think the house church is shrinking, but I do think there are many believers who'd like to go that way who feel they need permission. To which, again and again, thank you for your comments in that regard.<BR/><BR/>Notice, however, I am witholding my own comments about "the pastor"... for the moment. ;)<BR/><BR/>Thanks again, Ken.Bill Heromanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05283809456471966882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-39468270921931084742009-03-05T19:04:00.000-05:002009-03-05T19:04:00.000-05:00We're taking applications and look like we won't h...We're taking applications and look like we won't have any trouble at all filling the first cohorts. I haven't seen any of the applications, but we also have about 50 applications for the first two full time faculty posts.Ken Schenckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09745548537303356655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-81126975782875621072009-03-05T18:29:00.000-05:002009-03-05T18:29:00.000-05:00BTW, how is the MDIV coming along? Is the school t...BTW, how is the MDIV coming along? Is the school taking student applications already, and what has the response been so far?Mark Schnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00521939849864426818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-58731181953815475722009-03-05T18:26:00.000-05:002009-03-05T18:26:00.000-05:00Ken, I unfortunately don't have time to read Viola...Ken, I unfortunately don't have time to read Viola's book right now. I have over 5000 pages of course reading barking at me. ;-( But I appreciate your chapter by chapter review very much. You don't pull any punches with your opinions of his book but I feel you are being even handed in giving him the benefit of the doubt when you can. <BR/><BR/>The part I especially liked is what you wrote before the actual review started. If this was a sermon I would have stood and shouted like camp meeting! This is why I follow your blog. <BR/><BR/>BTW, I hope you don't yield to the practitioners too quickly. They need your side of things badly to keep that program as deep as it needs to be. I say that as someone that is practically minded too.<BR/><BR/>This summer when I have a few weeks to read I'll get this book and then follow along with your blog chapter by chapter.Mark Schnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00521939849864426818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-34762731825620074152009-03-05T18:06:00.000-05:002009-03-05T18:06:00.000-05:00...idle hands on empty heads! that's funny. But ma......idle hands on empty heads! that's funny. But maybe they are laid in hope. I fought the ordained all my life perhaps because I was raised at a boarding school in the presence of a violent and abusive pastor. (Not to mention largely ignorant and rigid in teaching style.) Such is the luck of the draw. On the positive side, Hans Küng in his book The Church largely agrees with you on the issue of consecration of the elements, absolution etc - there is no reason that he can see that such are forbidden to the lay person - except for due order in public worship...<BR/><BR/>And BTW, I worship in a high Anglican church, I am not ordained, and I teach Sunday school - 5 minutes a week in Hebrew - the kids love it. (See <A HREF="http://stbarnabasvictoria.blogspot.com/" REL="nofollow">here</A> for the record of my classes over the past 10 months.)<BR/><BR/>I think the Spirit says - get on with it and don't fuss about some of these issues.Bob MacDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11335631079939764763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-56711252225149494882009-03-05T16:46:00.000-05:002009-03-05T16:46:00.000-05:00Yes, I have some of the same questions. I remember...Yes, I have some of the same questions. I remember what a joke my ordination exams were. Four years of seminary and all I needed was a high school Bible class!!! The flimsiness of the whole process shook me. It reminds me of what CH Spurgeon, who was not ordained and therefore not a Rev., said. "Ordination is laying idle hands on empty heads."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-55232845676397438332009-03-05T16:41:00.000-05:002009-03-05T16:41:00.000-05:00Yes, there has to be a balance. Ive sat under educ...Yes, there has to be a balance. Ive sat under educated fools and Spirit led pastors with barely a high school education.Look at the eloqeunce and clarity of Peter's writings, a fisherman. The message and the messenger must be anointed from above. Proper education allows them to be more effective as channels of the Holy Spirit. Part of the problem is that some educational institutions don't take the Bible literally anymore.They choose the parts they like in the same manner you would order a dell computer online.<BR/>We must return to preaching the Bible and not our opinions...keith 1 Cor 13The Circuit Riderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01271680851809340108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-77264817254175231992009-03-05T11:57:00.000-05:002009-03-05T11:57:00.000-05:00Some random thoughtsThis was lol funny. I grew up...Some random thoughts<BR/><BR/>This was lol funny. <BR/> <BR/>I grew up in an anti-intellectual culture; where (some)preachers I had no education I knew of, but were able to pastor churches. They ministered to people like themselves, of course, and maybe that was their value. Sometimes I envy them in their self assured ignorance, my own bothers me greatly. <BR/><BR/>Viola's attitude seems like that of the early praise and worship movement "We are going to stamp out hymns in church." Some repented of this, but not all. And it brought great pain into a number of churches. <BR/><BR/>Pride goes before a fall, a reminder we all need from time to time. <BR/><BR/>You forgot to mention a third category of pastors, those who don't know theology, and still can't get the practical stuff done. I'm learning as I go, I hope, though I have my days when I wonder.....John Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01584577160006751298noreply@blogger.com