tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post5866162301256221036..comments2024-03-28T09:52:15.415-04:00Comments on Common Denominator: Grudem: The Necessity of Scripture 1Ken Schenckhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09745548537303356655noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-55797773106270162802012-09-22T14:45:00.781-04:002012-09-22T14:45:00.781-04:00Fundamentalism is a reaction to the Academy becaus...Fundamentalism is a reaction to the Academy because of a fear of knowledge that might undermine "God's pre-eminence". Fundamentalism is what is wrong with the world today, IMO. While the Reformation gave us "enlightenment" via the printing press and education, the Enlightenment opened man up to scientific exploration of understanding the universe.Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-45509728635272669002012-09-22T14:23:33.535-04:002012-09-22T14:23:33.535-04:00Ken,
If one "reads self reflectively" th...Ken,<br />If one "reads self reflectively" then one is aware of the Tradition one uses to interpret scripture. This is self awareness, not dependence on mystical revelation. Since the New Testament was the "Christian revelation", then self reflection means that Americans, for the most part read scripture with christian lenses, though those lenses have various understandings, just as any Tradition does. The Church has been the "formative foundation" of one's understanding, though the Reformation opened the way for fundamentalist framing of "faith", which depends on personal subjectivity, not communal judgment. Geographical distinctions, as well as familial distinctions make for how a particular person comes to terms with "faith claims" in America.<br /><br />If one determines how one understands scripture in history or as history, then one has to understand a Traditions historical context, within World Historical context. The difficulty of determining historical reality lies in postmodernity that makes claims for everyone's position based on certain biases. Diverse views about historical realities is what has made for the conflict in the world based on religious claims.<br /><br />All of us are biased, even within American culture, because we have been raised with certain environmental influencers. Denominationally, one can read scripture to support many views, much less when one view scripture within a broader context...Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-44552900222363246982012-09-22T13:25:48.153-04:002012-09-22T13:25:48.153-04:00Pre-modern is an imperfect term, but I use it to r...Pre-modern is an imperfect term, but I use it to refer to an un-self-reflective perspective on a particular topic. Grudem cannot see the glasses he wears when reading Scripture. He is unable to get into the heads of the biblical authors and audiences but reads the words in his own world.Ken Schenckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09745548537303356655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-7527971243747648182012-09-22T13:18:39.778-04:002012-09-22T13:18:39.778-04:00I'm confused as to your use of the term pre-mo...I'm confused as to your use of the term pre-modern, which I have assumed was pre-Enlightenment, or even earlier- which in my mind is "pre-rationalist" in the way one approaches scripture. I'm thinking that before the Enlightenment or the Renaissance (I can't always clearly differentiate the two in my mind) there was much room for mystery in how we viewed the world and therefore the scripture. <br />But you seem to be using the word in a way that contradicts this. John Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00060404930391236792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-91272288373184932632012-09-22T12:57:23.709-04:002012-09-22T12:57:23.709-04:00Bob, my upgrade metaphor was very limited in meani...Bob, my upgrade metaphor was very limited in meaning. Those Jews that were expecting a Messiah at the time of Christ were looking for a king to restore the earthly kingdom of Israel. What they got was God himself literally coming on earth and taking the cosmic throne of the universe, never to die, never to pass on his throne to another after his death. That's what I meant by upgrade.<br /><br />That's all under the hood. When we close the hood and read the OT as Christians, we can experience him on every page!Ken Schenckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09745548537303356655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-63082502164450432252012-09-22T12:25:34.053-04:002012-09-22T12:25:34.053-04:00Ken - thank you for the many delightful bits in yo...Ken - thank you for the many delightful bits in your presentation, but I wonder about your metaphor of "Jesus was a massive upgrade", an I-Phone better than the I-Phone 5?<br /><br />Massive upgrade would seem to imply that Jesus would not himself have learned within the culture of the OT. I admit I have not had time to do a close reading, or a historical reading of all TNK. It has taken me 6 years (since St Andrews 2006) to 'do' the Psalms and I have but scratched the surface. I could easily rest here.<br /><br />But I am 'here' in the 'culture' of this Scripture, with its encouraging and life-supporting microbes, proteins, and fibre. And I find 'Jesus' here with me, the same Spirit that informs the NT.<br /><br />I do not need to dispute that Moses wrote the Torah or David the Psalter because culture such as this textual deposit represents is a historical phenomenon. <br /><br />God incarnate needs to be in these (OT) texts also - not as a simplistic prediction, but as deep as the incarnational heresies of say the Sufi dancers. I am not sure that the upgrade metaphor will stand in the culture. Equally I believe that historical criticism is part of that same culture that dissolves the falsity of Grudem's assumptions. (E.g. the rewriting of the Torah regulations for living in the land versus living in the desert.)<br /><br />How do we 'read' the NT and live the 'OT' in contradistinction to fundamentalism and literalism? How do we distinguish a 'massive upgrade' from say 'the seal of the prophets'?Bob MacDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11335631079939764763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-39596340304261852492012-09-22T11:18:51.929-04:002012-09-22T11:18:51.929-04:00I do think there is plenty in the OT on its own te...I do think there is plenty in the OT on its own terms to make one wise to salvation--Love God and love neighbor pretty much does it. <br /><br />But even apart from the that, you're assuming again that the way in which the Scriptures would make Timothy wise to salvation is by the literal meaning. This is exactly what the issue is--does Paul limit the way in which the Scriptures make one wise to the literal mode? You're assuming your conclusion in your argument. Ken Schenckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09745548537303356655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-18006467389108625532012-09-22T08:58:09.574-04:002012-09-22T08:58:09.574-04:00Paul told Timothy that the Scriptures (must have b...Paul told Timothy that the Scriptures (must have been the O.T. Scriptures) were able to make him wise unto salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. Perhaps there was more of "Christ Jesus" in the O.T. than you imagine. Really there, really prophesied by the prophets; not just spiritually imagined by the N.T. writers. And all those "heros of the faith" in Heb. 11 were certainly counted righteous by God without any N.T. writings. They were "made perfect" by God because they "looked forward" to a city (kingdom?) that God told them about through their Scriptures.Dick Nortonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-70561417315676198722012-09-22T08:38:42.366-04:002012-09-22T08:38:42.366-04:00Yes, but it's the only content that is authori...Yes, but it's the only content that is authoritative. "If I or an angel from heaven teaches any other gospel than I have taught, let him be accursed." A Christian witnessing on the street is the medium, but the only content that counts is Scripture. If an angel appears to the Muslim guy, the angel won't be telling the Muslim anything different from Scripture.Dick Nortonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-15061524142020160082012-09-22T06:21:49.063-04:002012-09-22T06:21:49.063-04:00That's a matter of content, though, rather tha...That's a matter of content, though, rather than medium, wouldn't you say?Ken Schenckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09745548537303356655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-62831068367141500462012-09-22T06:19:54.252-04:002012-09-22T06:19:54.252-04:00What if someone gets a "direct revelation&quo...What if someone gets a "direct revelation" from God that contradicts Scripture? It's pretty evident to me that the standard is the Scripture.Dick Nortonnoreply@blogger.com