tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post4709506306092412376..comments2024-03-28T09:52:15.415-04:00Comments on Common Denominator: Crisis of Evangelicalism (Intro)Ken Schenckhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09745548537303356655noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-28486446141977249492013-12-17T11:49:37.969-05:002013-12-17T11:49:37.969-05:00The "Protestant Principle" is still at w...The "Protestant Principle" is still at work, be it in individual churches, denominations and even, some families. The Protestant Principle does bring division because of difference in interpretation of Scripture. <br /><br />The Catholic (and some Wesleyans) argues for Tradition/orthodoxy, as much as Scripture. Scripture apart from understanding Tradition, which really is about Jewish roots, is hyper-spiritualized and disconnected from history.<br /><br />America's "tradition" is Protestantism in the Christian tradition, which has led to individualism and "secularism". Some believe this is bad, but others think it good. Whether Protestantism is viewed as neutral, good or evil depends on whether you are grounded in a foundation of mysticism (supernaturalism) or reason (naturalism). <br /><br />America was indeed "inspired" by dissent (religious liberty), pursuit of material gain (gold rush,Protestant work ethic, private property), and a healthy dose of reality in fighting for "liberty". Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness in this sense is for each citizen and some Christians fight for human rights defending the "natural rights" argument of Christian tradition. <br /><br />Reason is man's best measure for what is in his best interests. Mysticism leaves humans open to "other ends", than their own end. Self annihlation is not "good news", no matter how it is expressed as to rewards in heaven! Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-63620752433315819082013-12-15T04:13:43.295-05:002013-12-15T04:13:43.295-05:00Tossing and turning. Something still wants to be ...Tossing and turning. Something still wants to be said. Let me struggle again.<br />“What I’m asking you is –do you still believe the heavens are open? Do you think that God can ascend and descend at will? Do you think that donkeys can speak and ax heads can float? Do you think that bushes can speak and never burn up? Do you think 12 year old kids can fell giants? Do you think water can be rolled back? Do you think someone can walk on water? Do you think He can raise the dead at a funeral? Better yet; can He raise Himself at His own funeral? <br />If God can do all things then He is intimately involved in our affairs today. Therefore, O Church, do not give up” (Rev. Steve DeNeff, College Wesleyan Church, retrieved from 12/08/13 sermon).<br />It seems that currently the ones who are considered the Evangelicals deny the one, true God who is still alive and active in human life through signs, wonders and miracles. These people profess to follow the teachings of scripture and yet completely miss the fact that all the above examples, and many more, come from those same scriptures. Their minds don’t ‘see’ the signs, wonders and miracles of God: it is a spiritual defense mechanism against their disappointments in life - the times that they were hurting and struggling and God did not seem to be there for them. Their lack of vision is a spiritual defense mechanism that combines denial with projection, scapegoating and dissociation. Feeling abandoned and oppressed by God, they deny the works of the Spirit in the physical world, project their feelings of oppression through the scapegoating and oppression of others, and dissociate the remaining God into Father and Son, and cling to the one who died for their sins, Jesus. Those are the ones currently referred to as evangelicals. They evangelize out of a desire to be obedient to Jesus’ great commission.<br />On the other hand are the ones who do not deny the Spirit, who are Spirit-filled and evangelize by grace through faith. These evangelize from the love of God. Not the loving of God, but the actual love of God Himself who indwells them and fills them and leaks out in evangelization. If one of those people would choose not to allow the Spirit to evangelize through them, it would have the same long-term useless effect as sticking one’s finger in the hole of a dam.<br />Perhaps the best way Wesleyans and others can enter the world of the Evangelicals, is to address their spiritual pain. <br />Susan Moorenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-32631893687758956472013-12-14T22:16:48.339-05:002013-12-14T22:16:48.339-05:00I'm going on too long, but to be clear, I mean...I'm going on too long, but to be clear, I meant to say that even though at one time many of us in the holiness movement thought we were sacred guardians of the Bible's teaching, or at least of the Pietist tradition, Apostles makes a case that under pressure we gradually adapted to the fundamentalist and Calvinistic world we lived in. I think Keith Drury has spoken of this many time; we did it simply to be respectable. Will we ever recover what we lost? Should we? John Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00060404930391236792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-2361110610834563482013-12-14T22:08:22.126-05:002013-12-14T22:08:22.126-05:00I have wondered, prompted mostly by reading you, w...I have wondered, prompted mostly by reading you, what my faith history would have been like had I been raised in England of Continental Europe. Of course I realize--even if I don't know particulars--that there is cultural 'baggage' for lack of a better term in any situation. <br />We have been influenced by fundamentalism, so it would seem, far more than we have, or should I say, I have even been aware at times. My history is of course that I thought I was part of a church that understood Christian living far better than any other church I knew anything about. Not only (no one actually said this) did I think we were 'better' than liberals who preached the social gospel, or other conservative groups that believed in eternal security, we might just be the only crowd that made it. Worthen has done an incredible amount of research. I would love to know what if any personal religious beliefs she holds to. She is almost contemptuous (I'm probably reading too much into good journalism) towards some groups and individuals. I wonder, too, if this will change anything at all in the current religious landscape here. It may change how some people think of themselves. <br />I confess to being thrilled by the fact that a book written about American Christianity mentions Wiley and others; historically we have been treated, in my view, as if we don't even exist. <br />A fascinating book. I look forward to further reviews from you. John Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00060404930391236792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-53518270828263465912013-12-14T20:18:21.196-05:002013-12-14T20:18:21.196-05:00A red flag went up for me with the statement that ...A red flag went up for me with the statement that evangelicalism is viewed by the African-American community as a ‘white word’, and is a white phenomenon in the U.S. <br />According to the estranged church in my own community (which is primarily African-American), the ‘evangelical’ churches tend to be cessationist in their beliefs, follow a works-theology, and/or are not accepting of African Americans or other non-white individuals. <br />It is believed that the evangelical beliefs that lead to or arise from white supremacy thinking, also gives rise to oppression of women and of anyone not married and white. That is to say that there seems to be a direct correlation between the ones who identify themselves as evangelicals and the beliefs that they ‘own’ others (that others are to submit to them based on their self-given authority over those others. The identity of the ‘others’ may change over time). <br />Whereas it seems that African-American Christians prefer a full-gospel approach that does not exclude the heavens being open to God’s direct and unexpected action on human life through signs, wonders and miracles (for reference, check this past Sunday’s CWC’s sermon). <br />Because of their full-gospel preference, and being oppressed by white churches, the churched African-American community has their own leaders that proclaim Him, and who are educated, ordained and African-American.<br />Therefore, if Pentecostals, Wesleyans and others desire to be included in that evangelical terminology, then, based on their histories, it may prove exceedingly wise for them to take the lead and re-define that word “evangelical” so that its meaning includes all Christians; if indeed it does.<br />Some of us may be gifted in proclaiming Him, but the current label of ‘evangelical’ seems to be one that even Jesus would not agree to wear.<br />Susan Moorenoreply@blogger.com