tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post3402864462197685875..comments2024-03-28T03:25:49.943-04:00Comments on Common Denominator: Hell in the Bible (10)Ken Schenckhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09745548537303356655noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-62632947284371992652012-01-13T20:47:32.814-05:002012-01-13T20:47:32.814-05:00Angie:
"Follow the truth wherever it leads y...Angie:<br /><br />"Follow the truth wherever it leads you, and you will inevitably end up in the arms of Christ." - Simone Weil<br /><br />To this, I would add: continue to follow the truth, and you will eventually find yourself in the arms of the Apostolic Church.<br /><br />Paul:<br /><br />A genius of patristic theology is redefining words, regardless of language. (Consider the meaning of "hypostasis" in classical Greek usage vs. its use in the Cappodochians and subsequent trinitarian theology, for example) In any event, "hell" in English has a pretty standard meaning (the "lake of fire" of the Apocalypse), so the issue becomes, how to reconcile the reality of this with that of an infinitely loving God (who is also described as "consuming fire" and who shows up, at Pentecost, as "tongues of fire".)FrGregACCAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00368463715994694203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-20324513563012774352012-01-13T09:08:10.000-05:002012-01-13T09:08:10.000-05:00FrGregACCA,
It sounds like you are giving a "...FrGregACCA,<br />It sounds like you are giving a "Pascal wager" and suggesting that if one doesn't come out on the "right side" (that is "faith"), then one will suffer consequences. How can you make such a claim, except by "faith"? Aren't your interpretatons biased by your "faith"? What if someone sees or understands something differently? How do you suggest they understand their situation? You must believe that "God" teaches you through trials, etc.<br /><br />Although I know there are physical laws that guard what I choose to do, there are no simple laws of life, because life has variables, complexities and issues, that most physical laws don't contend with, at least at the level most of us understand.<br /><br />Moral development is not black and white thinking, but an understanding that life is too complex for "simple answers" and solutions. And shouldn't all be more prone to live in the real world than the spiritual one, as then we can face facts, and deal with issues, rather than appeal to some "hope" of or for the future.Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-76687842092760858822012-01-13T07:14:18.215-05:002012-01-13T07:14:18.215-05:00Fr Greg: That's the Orthodox view of Hell, isn...Fr Greg: That's the Orthodox view of Hell, isn't it? I admit it is much more theologically defensible and more consistent with a loving God than most Protestant viewpoints. However, I do have concerns that even calling it "Hell" muddies the water, as it imposes an English-language category with a lot of baggage.<br /><br />Would a Greek-speaking priest, saying what you just said, use the word Gehenna? Tartarus?Paul D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13483419817200339955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-73108328076470156042012-01-12T23:52:06.803-05:002012-01-12T23:52:06.803-05:00If God exists, then hell exists. Hell is the expe...If God exists, then hell exists. Hell is the experience of God by those who cannot abide the infinite Divine Love that God is.FrGregACCAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00368463715994694203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-72370718751061075232012-01-12T20:42:12.067-05:002012-01-12T20:42:12.067-05:00With all due respect to you and your wonderfully t...With all due respect to you and your wonderfully thorough and scholarly overview of biblical ideas of the afterlife, the final sentence feels like a bit of a cop-out.<br /><br />"In the end, you and I cannot decide what hell is, so our best bet is to avoid it at all costs and to share the good news of Christ to as many others as possible in hope that they will avoid it as well."<br /><br />After demonstrating how unlikely and how alien to most of the Bible the "eternal conscious torture" view of hell is — not to mention the lack of even a single iota of evidence for it — you seem to be adopting Pascal's Wager to suggest we pretend it exists. And worse, that the Gospel of Jesus was "you're going to Hell unless you convert to a new religious system that my followers will concoct".Paul D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13483419817200339955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-42562197439477624112012-01-12T13:52:13.814-05:002012-01-12T13:52:13.814-05:00Ah, Ken, you must have the mind of a "man and...Ah, Ken, you must have the mind of a "man and woman" to be able to discern and negotiate the whole thing by yourself! And how convenient for you, as then "when you see it", you can be the "top dog" in making judgments that benefit you alone, ;-)! I understand it differently.<br /><br />Discrimination makes distinctions. Men and Women's bathrooms are defined that way because it is more convenient. I don't know of a woman, yet, that can stand up to go to the bathroom ;-)! Therefore, all boundaries humans draw are convenient for certain things.<br /><br />The most important aspect to the boundary drawing is agreement. Both parties negotiate what is or will be the best for both parties/groups. (or in the Supreme Court Case employer and employee)....<br /><br />Consensus is built to sway public opinion, but consensus can also be a means of discriminating behavior that our government does not condone. Liberty is granted to everyone in our country, as long as there have been no civil laws broken. And sometimes, appeals have to be made to courts, so that social change can occur, regarding discrimination based on certain standards.<br /><br />The Supreme Court allowed the Church the right to liberty in defining their standards of employment, which are specifically religious. If the minister did not agree to these standards, then there was no way forward, or compromise where negotiation was possible.<br /><br />This verdict protects individual liberties pertaining to conscience regarding religious conviction, as well, as both the church and the individual must come to terms with what is of importance and agree. The Lutheran minister had already "agreed" to Lutheran standards in being ordained within the Lutheran church! And if the individual changes their commitments, or values, then it is appropriate to "step down".Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-28338537321789584572012-01-12T09:15:10.770-05:002012-01-12T09:15:10.770-05:00I don't think it is discrimination to ask men ...I don't think it is discrimination to ask men not to go into women's bathrooms. It's rather a fair boundary with which both groups agree. I realize one could make a similar argument in relation to things considered discrimination, but "white water fountains" was something quite different. It's hard to define, but I know it when I see it ;-)Ken Schenckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09745548537303356655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-59288879228162220582012-01-12T09:11:30.951-05:002012-01-12T09:11:30.951-05:00Ken,
That is only just a semantics game, isn't...Ken,<br />That is only just a semantics game, isn't it?<br /><br />Discrimination is where one draws lines in the sand about who is in and who is out! Therefore, if one does not meet the required standards, then they are out (whatever those standards are).<br /><br />We believe that nation states are defined by their geographical boundaries, as well as their governing rules, whether offical laws, Constitution, mores, etc. <br /><br />Social osterization has been a way to maintain social control for eons. Stoning was the height of the "excommunicaton process". Nathanael Hawthrone wrote about it in the "Scarlet Letter".<br /><br />The way civilized societies "socialize" their citizens is through education, not banishment and social osterization.<br /><br />Our society believes in "free association", which is based on whether one desires to associate with another. In this particular case, the Lutheran minister had not met standards that the employer (the Church) had set. <br /><br />I agree with the Supreme Court decision, as religious liberty was one of the foremost concerns for some of those who came to America, and for those who created the Constitution in the First Amendment.Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-33117466370233250042012-01-12T08:45:43.508-05:002012-01-12T08:45:43.508-05:00I prefer not to call it discrimination. Within the...I prefer not to call it discrimination. Within the scope of religious beliefs, a religious association has the right to hire people who agree with its beliefs.Ken Schenckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09745548537303356655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-84638850353616599982012-01-12T08:42:21.593-05:002012-01-12T08:42:21.593-05:00Differences about eternal life, the resurrection, ...Differences about eternal life, the resurrection, and God have always and forever will be the differientiating factors between different religions and different sects within the religion. And no one is able to prove one way or another, because every religion requires faith to believe whatever the particular religion teaches.<br /><br />The recent Supreme Court decision about the church's right to discriminate in employment standards affirms the Founding Father's views of religous liberty. Liberty of conscience prevents from religious wars where there are different "convictions" about faith.Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8355052.post-79528621412709641212012-01-12T08:29:15.906-05:002012-01-12T08:29:15.906-05:00It may be worth mentioning that the book of Daniel...It may be worth mentioning that the book of Daniel likely originates from that same 2-3 century period before Christ when so many other Christian background concepts seem to have developed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com